If you're thinking of selling your work....

[Mabel Figworthy]

...this might be a useful and interesting read.

It's enough to make you weep, but it's a fact - people are not going to be willing to pay the full economic value of anything hand-stitched. And as the writer points out, the offer to "teach them to make it themselves" is often met by a serious lack of interest as well. "I don't want to make it myself, I want you to make it for me, cheap" seems to be an attitude that is far too common.

As I wrote in reaction to this, it really means that we make these for love of the craft, _and_ for love of the people we make them for. A hand-made card says "I spent over an hour working on this card because I care about you and want to give you pleasure when you open the envelope (and hopefully whenever you see it after that)". And I suppose that is invaluable!

[Sojourner]

Oh Mabel, you've put it in a nutshell...
After years of making all kinds of miniatures: ships in bottles/miniature furniture/embroidery items/etc/etc, I empathise totally.
I wish I had a pound for every person who's asked me to make them something, then fallen on the floor when I've told them a realistic price....(I always think to myself, "what are you doing whilst I'm spending hours making this? Probably sitting in front of the telly )
So nowadays I refuse to even consider such requests. and make things solely as GIFTS for relatives and friends.
I have to laugh when I read magazine articles on the theme of, "Earn extra money from your craft/hobby..." In your dreams.
BUT, we craftsmen/women have something those others never understand - the sheer pleasure of creating a beautiful thing which will stand the test of time.
Rant over

On a related theme, people often say to me, "you could do that for a living (modelmaking etc)", and certainly many do perhaps dream of turning their hobby into a paid job, Well, a caveat - I did this, and worked as a full time professional modelmaker at a model village for 3 years - in that time I never made a single model in my spare time. If your hobby becomes your living, what then do you do for a hobby?

[Mabel Figworthy]

BUT, we craftsmen/women have something those others never understand - the sheer pleasure of creating a beautiful thing which will stand the test of time.

Very true, and very important!

If your hobby becomes your living, what then do you do for a hobby?

DH and I are in that position about one-and-a-half times - his hobby is vintage cars, and we now have a business selling spare parts for pre-war Austin Sevens. He really enjoys it, all those contacts with fellow enthusiasts, but he does find it practically impossible to find the time (and space) to work on his own cars. Fortunately he does stillmanage to compete in trials and take part in rallies.

As for Mabel, although in a sense I design and stitch what I like, and then put it on the website to see if anyone else likes it too the very fact of being a business means there are things I need to do (take extensive notes and pictures of anything I design, put kits together, source tools, write instructions, prepare for workshops) which I would not have to do if I was just stitching for myself, so yes, it does eat into my own stitching time somewhat. Especially with the SAL at the moment that takes pretty much all of my spare time. On the other hand, like DH I do enjoy it very much! So on the whole I think I'm happy to continue with Mabel's Fancies

[Serinde]

Yup. Says it all.

(Serinde hops on her soapbox.) We live in the times we do, and we are all so accustomed to our comfortable lives. What has been forgotten is that, in truth, we live like the kings of old. For most in the West, we live more comfortable lives than they did (I give you hot and cold running water and indoor sanitation; not even going near medicine; and armed conflict is rare). Lace, ribbon, linen, the tools of our hobbies: all machine made. If we all had to first plant our flax (or cotton), grow it, harvest and prepare it, spin and weave it into fabric, chances are we'd be embroidering it for the local laird, not ourselves! This time of year -- although it should be all times of year -- we should be utterly grateful for the good fortune that put us where we live in the times we live. And we should move heaven and earth to make it our business to be (at least) the good stewards of our inheritance. (Serinde hops off her soapbox.)

[Mabel Figworthy]

Good soapbox speech Serinde (ever considered Hyde park Corner?) - and you don't even have to go back that far "yore"; my grandmother didn't have to harvest her own flax or anything like that but she did have to feed and clothe nine children in occupied Netherlands during the war (and she kept her humanity and sense of humour throughout; remarkable woman, my grandmother). Just being able to sit here in peace, not having to worry about where my next meal will come from (well, provided I cook it of course ), warm, housed, clothed, loved ... anything else is insignificant.

(Which doesn't mean I don't still think the worker is worthy of his pay...)

[Garnet]

That was an interesting read, thank you Mabel for posting it.

As I wrote in reaction to this, it really means that we make these for love of the craft, _and_ for love of the people we make them for. A hand-made card says "I spent over an hour working on this card because I care about you and want to give you pleasure when you open the envelope (and hopefully whenever you see it after that)". And I suppose that is invaluable!

I agree completely, I only make cards and gifts or decorations for either fellow stitchers or those who I know will really appreciate the fact I took time and put thought into making whatever it was, as I make something for a specific person, I think about that person and remember our times together, in other words it is made with love, and a price really cannot be put on that. I learned this the hard way when a previous co-worker said laughingly "I felt bad putting it in the bin"

Do you remember the Santas and Snowmen I knitted ( they are somewhere in All Other Crafts), well I used to make so many of those for the Church Fayre, I had a veritable production line going, make 100 arms, 50 bodies etc, and I had a stall at the Fayre where I sold them for £1 each, and they always sold out ( and raised a tidy sum for the Church), well many years ago I had to work that Saturday, but still had all the little things ready to go, another woman from from Church offered to (wo-)man my stall, I delivered them to her with the little prices attached and told her as well how much to charge and off I went to work. When I finished I went straight to the Fayre and was immediately taken aside by another lady who said " I think you should know ......... sold everything for 10p", I was flabbergasted to say the least, not only had she not understood the cost of materials, but she had denied the Church a decent amount I know they would have made. Sadly I also knew the following year people would be back expecting to pay only 10p instead of £1. I never made any more after that. so sometimes even people I thought would have known better just don't think until cost is pointed out to them.

Now I chuckle and say in a humorous voice " oh that took me 5 months to stitch " if I get hints about my framed pieces, (twice now with Wuthering Heights)

Serinde, I could not agree more, we are only custodians of our precious planet, and need to be grateful for our good fortune, and remember those less fortunate than ourselves. I always acknowledge how lucky I am to have a full cupboard, a roof over my head and warm clothes on my back. ** gets off soapbox**

(Didn't mean to rant, or pull anyone down)

[Podolyanka]

When asked why I dont make money from my hobby, I never go into explaining as I am too old to waste my time on useless talks. A crafter would not ask, a non-crafter would not understand even after hours of explanations. I just say, " They cost me too much to be sold cheaply. Personally you would pay 500 dollars for this tablecloth? You would not. And I cant sell it cheaper, taking into consideration the work, my eyesight and time involved".

[rcperryls]

And then after you have finished the piece that the person commissioned, they decide they don't want it. I have had that happen twice. Both involved something for babies, one was an afghan and one a sampler. And they waited till I had added the names too. Never again. Unless I get paid up front. I love making gifts and I know people appreciate and love them. But most people have no concept of the time involved and even the expense.

Carole

[richardandtracy]

Mabel,

I can understand both sides. Craft work takes forever, and the cost, when done properly and charging a reasonable rate for the hours, is stupendous. It's awful to see people's reactions to the true cost.

Now, why do they have that reaction? It's worth examining a little.
In the past, 'stuff' was incredibly expensive in relation to people's income. Things like clothes were made to last, and repaired regularly, because, in effect, all posessions were made and sold at craft rates.
But now 'stuff' is cheap. Well, cheap enough to make craft stuff seem hugely expensive.
Why?
The long & short of it is industrialization. It has made the productivity of a worker vastly greater than it was, and so the cost of a mass manufactured article can fall to the point where 'stuff' becomes affordable where in the past it was beyond the dreams of an average person. The consequence of the mass manufacturing method is the de-skilling of the worker, and a general perception that 'stuff' can be made quickly and cheaply, even unique items by skilled craft workers. It's a sad state to be in, but in all honesty, I think 'stuff' being cheap has led to a more comfortable and longer life than it was in the past, and this more than compensates for the occasional irritation of the less knowledgeable people making complete clowns of themselves.

It's one of life's lessons that every silver lining (cheap, plentiful 'stuff') has a cloud. I wish it wasn't true, but it seems inevitable.

Regards,

Richard.

[Sojourner]

Certainly industrialisation/mass production is a major factor, but I think another reason (for the general lack of appreciation for "hand made" articles) is the prevailing "instant gratification" attitude - why spend hours making something when it can be obtained straight away from the shop/internet?
Only those who do actually spend time creating something can appreciate the time it takes, and the skill involved.
The UK's finest showcase for hand crafted models of all descriptions - the annual Model Engineer Exhibition, is in danger of folding, due in large part to the lack of interest in younger people , the craft is literally dying out, as so many others in the past. Why bother fiddling about with bits of wood/metal/wool when you can spend all your spare time on social media??
An example, though off topic - there has never been as much information : books, magazine articles, TV programmes, about food and cooking. And yet more and more people are living on instant, easy, take-away and packaged meals. Why bother expending time and effort making a meal if it's available NOW? (albeit at a greater cost, usually, and not only in monetary terms...)
Thank goodness for forums such as this one, at least doing our best to hold back the tide
Rant number 2 over

[Mabel Figworthy]

A very insightful analysis Richard, thank you.

Sojourner, don't despair - it's been said for years if not decades that embroidery is a dying art/craft and look at us! When I attend the RSN classes or when I teach workshops myself, although the majority of people are my age (nearly 50) or older, there is a heartening proportion of younger people. My husband finds the same in the vintage car world (although the youngsters - and those in their 30s - are a bit less likely to actually want to work on the cars) and a friend of ours who is a model train & steam train enthusiast reports a similar situation.

[rcperryls]

Sojourner, don't despair - it's been said for years if not decades that embroidery is a dying art/craft and look at us!

I agree. When I think back to when I started stitching to now, I am amazed at the variety of designs, fabrics, threads available. My first efforts came from catalogs and then local needlework shops (these I am so sorry to have lost) and then the large craft stores. Either kits or individual charts or Craft books were available. While I miss browsing the stores, I do admit, I delight in browsing the web and the almost absurd amount of choices that are available. So there must be a market for our craft (and I am sure many others) I am sorry to hear that there is a decrease in crafting models and I'm sure that others are slowing down, but as long as there are a few people practicing a craft, there's always a chance that there will be a comeback of interest.

Carole

[fccs]

I have only stitched one piece for someone who asked. She’s a friend and wanted me to stitch a specific design for her brother and sister-in-law. I was glad to do it and only asked her to pay for the supplies. It was done out of friendship, not out of a desire to make money. I don’t want my hobby to become a job.

[Roland]

Someone once asked me to make a stocking for them. It was not a close friend or family. I said, depending on specific pattern they chose, price would start at $125.

They laughed and said that’s ridiculous. I shrugged and assumed conversation was over. But, of course, they wanted to argue down the price. I let them go on for a bit. Then, finally, I just said, how much, per hour, do you think I should charge? That stopped him for a moment and he said (with a smirk) about $3 per hour. My response was....OK, so $50 for materials (assuming no beads or specialty threads) plus ($3 x 125 hours) $375 for a total of $425. Pay half up front please.

Needless to say, there was a lot of cursing, but no order placed. Lol

[Serinde]

Ooft

[Mabel Figworthy]

He was "happy" for you to charge $3 an hour? My how generous.....

[wendywombat]

The certainly told him!!
I have never stitched a stocking, and probably never will, but I have stitched some large items.
Sadly non-stitchers just have No Idea how long it does take to stitch even the smallest piece.

[Serinde]

No, WW, they don't. And inevitably they are drawn to the most beautiful/complicated designs... As I keep saying, this is exactly the reason why these items were almost always commissioned by and/or made for the upper classes, who had the money to spend and the status to protect (and project, come to that).

[Sojourner]

Yes, I couldn't agree more with all the above.
Would these people who expect one to work for $3 per hour do their job for the same wages?
I think not

[cristaltipps]

I just point blank refuse to do anything for money, my brother asked me once to do him the same thing as i was doing for my son, well first i do not like to do anything twice but secondly the thing for my son was supposed to be just for him if you see what i mean, but i said to my brother let me think about it and i will give you a price, I only counted £2.00 per hour and cost of materials he was so shocked and yet his first partner was a stitcher and he knew how many hours go into something, anyway he was 50 last birthday and i did him a piece not exactly the same but the same theme as a gift, he was over the moon with it and it hangs pride of place in his home, to be honest that means more to me than any money ever could.