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http://www.heavenandearthdesigns.com/Wh ... 20Pack.pdf" target="_blank" target="_blank

They have released this free chart in memory of Cecil. She gave permission to share widely. It's a beautiful chart and a lovely guesture by HAED.

Niki xxx

thanks for that, it is such a sad story and state of affairs that this is still happening but the picture is a beautiful reminder of why it shouldn't happen

my stash just keeps growing!

purgatory wrote:thanks for that, it is such a sad story and state of affairs that this is still happening but the picture is a beautiful reminder of why it shouldn't happen

my stash just keeps growing!

I agree completely. About Cecil and my stash. One is so sad and the other is getting kind of scary.

Carole

I am in two minds about what happened to Cecil.

Firstly, I don't agree with big game hunting. It's not appropriate for this day and age.

BUT, some hunting is legal in Zimbabwe. It appears that the hunter had all the right permits to shoot a lion in the area where he shot the lion. So what is the problem? Well, it appears that part of the problem is that the lion may have been lured out of the game reserve. Now, that is unethical, but it is hard to make it illegal, as wild animals go where they please - I'd be surprised if a lion is less stubborn than a domestic mog, and they just won't do something if they don't feel like it. The big problem is Zimbabwe allowing big game hunting, as far as I can see.

And again I find myself conflicted. We have a Leopard skin my grandfather shot in India in 1928. It is the skin of a man eater - it killed and ate at least one person, and possibly two - because of this my grandfather was sent off to deal with it. What is more, this leopard nearly got my grandfather as he was shooting it. It was something my grandfather was very proud to have done, and I can see why the hunter would feel proud of having shot the lion, though there was no threat to life or limb by not shooting the lion.

So, as you can see, I don't really know what to make of this. My general feeling is 'It wasn't nice, but seems to be legal. So release the hunter and change the law for the future.'.

Regards

Richard.

Thanks for sharing this, Niki - I would love to stitch this beautiful design!!

It's a very sad story and what a beautiful thing HAED has done in memory of Cecil. I have very strong feelings about the dentist, the people he paid, and what they all did but I won't go into them on the forum. Suffice it to say I'm on Cecil's side.

Thanks for sharing.

Thank you so much for sharing this piece, it's a wonderful commemoration and design and I hope to stitch it in the near future. Such a sad story that was!

richardandtracy wrote:I am in two minds about what happened to Cecil.

Firstly, I don't agree with big game hunting. It's not appropriate for this day and age.

BUT, some hunting is legal in Zimbabwe. It appears that the hunter had all the right permits to shoot a lion in the area where he shot the lion. So what is the problem? Well, it appears that part of the problem is that the lion may have been lured out of the game reserve. Now, that is unethical, but it is hard to make it illegal, as wild animals go where they please - I'd be surprised if a lion is less stubborn than a domestic mog, and they just won't do something if they don't feel like it. The big problem is Zimbabwe allowing big game hunting, as far as I can see.

And again I find myself conflicted. We have a Leopard skin my grandfather shot in India in 1928. It is the skin of a man eater - it killed and ate at least one person, and possibly two - because of this my grandfather was sent off to deal with it. What is more, this leopard nearly got my grandfather as he was shooting it. It was something my grandfather was very proud to have done, and I can see why the hunter would feel proud of having shot the lion, though there was no threat to life or limb by not shooting the lion.

So, as you can see, I don't really know what to make of this. My general feeling is 'It wasn't nice, but seems to be legal. So release the hunter and change the law for the future.'.

Regards

Richard.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/zimbabwe-se ... -1.2496117" target="_blank" target="_blank

There apparently are a few laws he broke, for example, no permit. And as for ethics...I don't think he knows the word.

And, no excuse of he didn't know the law. Ignorance is not a defence. And he paid $50,000 to do that hunt. He had enough money to find out the laws. (And obviously dentists over charge. )

I've known a lot of hunters. I do not feel hunting is immoral. I do think it immoral if the animals are endangered species. But, anyone who hunts with a bow knows there should always be a gun handy. The bow most often injures because very few hunters are good enough with it to make a clean kill. So...if you injure, you immediately use the gun. That it took 40 hours to kill Cecil is horrible.

And keep what you have of the leopard. There is nothing wrong with that.

richardandtracy wrote:...So, as you can see, I don't really know what to make of this. My general feeling is 'It wasn't nice, but seems to be legal. So release the hunter and change the law for the future.'

I agree with Richard. It's not like the dentist was the only big game hunter to ever shoot a lion. For a lot of folks there, this is their business and it is a legal enterprise. If he'd shot any other lion, it wouldn't have been newsworthy; but he shot the one lion that folks have their panties all in a twist about. Now the Zimbabwe government is looking for -- digging for -- any reason to charge him with a crime. While it seems to be fashionable to vilify the dentist, consider this: "It is a country where, 'hunters exported 49 lion trophies in 2013 alone' and where, since Cecil’s death 'it’s likely that at least a dozen other lions have been shot by trophy hunters.' A 2013 study in the journal Public Library of Science estimates that 96 lions were hunted per year between 1996 and 2006 in the country and 43 per year more recently. Lion trophy hunts were banned there in 2005 but allowed again after 2008." (see the whole article in TIME here)

I think trophy hunting is so abhorrent, but the problem is that it is a legal enterprise there and I view the killing of Cecil with mixed feelings. I think it was horrible that he was killed; but because he was killed, it will now put a microscope on hunting practices there and hopefully bring about some reforms that will help save hundreds of other animals that are killed there that no one cares about or has lifted a finger to help. I can't vilify the dentist. He was just operating in the system that allowed it to happen. We have to ask ourselves, if killing Cecil was so terrible, why did no one -- not even the Zimbabwe government -- care about the scores of other lions that have been killed in the exact same way?

Certainly, the fact he broke no laws seems up for dispute now - didn't seem to be when I wrote my first response. As Allyn says, why is Cecil more important than any other lion? I don't think he is, all are very important.

Regards,

Richard.

All are important.

However, Cecil was accustomed to people. While he wasn't a "pet" he knew humans to not be a threat.

It's quite a cheat for a "big game hunter".

~~~

It does seem some of this hunting either is allowed by governments, or maybe they get under-the-table payments? And that makes them as guilty, IMO.

If Cecil's death highlights this issue and starts to change the whole trophy hunting business that can only be a good thing, but I agree the reaction has been somewhat over active.

The dentist appears to think the only thing he did wrong was not to pick up and hide the collar.....

Much as I despise trophy hunters, the poachers who kill for tusks, horns, and bits of lion etc are the real terrible threw at, it's trying to change a whole market and psyche that thinks these things have medical and whatever else, value.

Cecil is more than just one lion, he's every lion poached or killed, he's every one, if people don't forget and keep fighting.

(Did you see someone had put a sign saying "Je suis Cecil" on one of the Trafalgar Lions?)

One thing that could severely curtail trophy hunting is for the airlines to refuse to fly these trophies.mone airline (Quatar?) has done so before the Cecil thing.

Niki xxx

Must admit I thought it was already banned under CITES regardless of whether there is a permit. Lions are classed as endangered, and CITES had no exceptions that I was able to find when I looked it up a couple of years ago. This came about because someone was selling a mammoth ivory pen and I wanted to see what the regs said before allowing its sale on another forum - as it turned out, Mammoth (being extinct) are not covered by conventions on endangered species.

I know within the UK, CITES was used by trading standards to prevent the sale of parts of a butterfly collection last year. This is despite the fact it was a domestic (ie not international) sale of a collection made in the Victorian period. The sale was blocked under the pretext that CITES does not have a commencement date for which items are exempt if they were collected before that date. I understand this was to prevent animal products being given faked early provenance, but it does cause difficulty for old and genuine material.

Regards,

Richard.